N731NR (still whining): "I've asked for clearance multiple times. I will answer the question exactly as written: > When ATC has you call. Not a cool move on his part. Dad was a FBO, Commercial, Instructor, Multi, Aerobatic, crop duster and Instrument. He did request a clearance. and our For purposes of these compilations, a regulated aviation entity holds a certificate issued by the FAA, (e.g., air carrier operating certificate, repair station certificate, pilot school certificate, airport operating certificate) or is a foreign air carrier or other aviation entity regulated under Part 129 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, 14 CFR Part 129. However, the penalties for pilot deviation can be quite severe, which is something that you should be aware of. Learn more. I live in Las Vegas. The overall outcome will depend on the situation in question and the consequences of the incident. I live under the approach and departure path to MIA, so I constantly have ATC audio playing in the background. Your request is assigned to the office listed below: Federal Aviation Administration Contact: Amelia McGillWestern-Pacific Region (424) 405-7221Flight Standards Division, AWP-200777 S. Aviation Blvd.El Segundo, CA 90245. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? What are the Advantages of Using VOR Systems for Navigation? To break down the exchange, the air traffic controller orders the aircraft to leave the Bravo airspace and pilot whines and refuses because he's already in the airspace. Anyway, a video has just been uploaded of an interaction between an air traffic controller and a pilot over the skies of Las Vegas on June 20, 2020. Karen Mosley apparetly is clueless about aviation. The Flight . Either way, whether medical or psychological, the solution is the same - he shouldnt have a license. Avoiding Pilot Deviations.pdf (1016.81 KB) Pilot deviations can occur in several different ways. If youre having medical issues or youre feeling unwell youre not supposed to be in command of an aircaft. It's clear the supe was not impressed by how the controller handled the situation either. I once ate spices in the Old City. I suspect the way this will be (or has been) settled is that both the controller and the pilot will be counseled respectively on what they could have done to prevent the situation. They got a full 2/3 of their pilots certificated!! If you do receive a brasher warning, you should know that you do not have to call the provided telephone straight away, and you are allowed to take some time to think about the situation that has occurred. I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. This is a willful/intentional violation of FAR and ATC instructions. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. What is more likely is ATC would instruct N1NR around Bravo. Best Flight Tracker: Live Tracking Maps, Flight Status, and Airport Delays for airline flights, private/GA flights, and airports. "Other pilot: "You're an ass$&#!". Please provide a copy of all records previously provided under FOIA request: 2020-007074WS . Researching this pilot's flight with FlightAware and Flightradar24 a much clearer picture emerges. That being said, its not just a comfort level thing or willingness issue - its often a safety judgement. This is about aviation. Airborne deviations can result when pilots stray from an assigned, heading, altitude, or instrument procedure, or if they penetrate controlled or restricted airspace without ATC clearance. He did not damage anybody. This leads the pilot to tell ATC to clear him. Thank one every time you get where you're going. This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. Where do I go on the Net to get ATC chatter at RDU? Undiagnosed tumors and the like can lead to emotional regulation problems and impaired judgement. Is there an issue? The FARs couldn't be more clear on this situation. I know this Controller and she is good at her job. Las Vegas class B is the only one Ive flown close to when I was on flight following trying to get into Henderson and they told me to squak 1200 and see ya. I remember many times that pilots would argue with me about instructions. Calling the cops on "someone suspicious" has become a way to say "There's a minority person and I don't like something about them so I called the cops on them.". Get the stick out of your asses. I'm not so sure she would know how to "buy a clue"!? Aviation SafetyOffice of Safety StandardsRegulatory Support DivisionAviation Data Systems Branch, In our continuing effort to improve the quality of service to our stakeholders, we would appreciate any comments you may have about our services and how to improve them. There's many reasons my flights keep being delayed and canceled and ATC being overworked is one of them. Reminds me of center frequencies ignoring calls from VFR aircraft. This should help to give you a better understanding of pilot deviation and the risks that are associated with it. She didn't offer a heading or instruction to resolve the issue. Amelia McGillManagement & Program Analyst (FOIA Coordinator)FAA-Office of Foundational BusinessCorrespondence Services Branch, AFB-130424-405-7221. It seems like the pilot was intent on entering Bravo with or without permission. Certainly, the other person on frequency broke the rules by transmitting directly to the pilot, but that was defensible and measured: the pilot had severely degraded situational awareness that was imperiling the safe operation of his aircraft. The ONLY reason aviation is the safest form of transportation is precisely because everything is taken so seriously. She refuses and he petulantly retorts back. 07-Oct-2022. Join FlightAware View more flight history Purchase entire flight history for NRL731. It appears this pilot got sloppy without realizing he got sloppy. She was released later on. I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy." . This pilot came in over Lake Meade under the class B which requires no ATC clearance to operate an aircraft. I'm the ATC supervisor in FSD is NxxxxR still Gotta love how times have changed Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. The Registry will be issuing revised certificates in batches based on the former expiration date. no no, Im saying the process in place is unnecessary - this phone call is more like a call to an upset friend than what is supposed to a dispassionate, factual entity (ATC, FAA). I hope he stops making bad decisions before he no longer has the ability to do so. All the information we have at this point shows that he blamed ATC for . Thank you.Respectfully,Geneva LaingManagement and Program Analyst, Management & Administrative Support Team, AJV-W640, Northwest Mountain Regional OfficeATO Western Service CenterResource Management Group2200 S. 216th St., 3rd Floor, 3N-458Des Moines, WA 98198Office: 206-231-3337Geneva.Laing@faa.gov, [Your new Mission Support Services Logo! These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? I'm a Retired LAS Controller. Have you ever said anything nasty to somebody else on the ground or anywhere? 08:47PM EDT Montreal-Trudeau - YUL. They also rechecked the examiner who tested him on his private he got suspended for a short time and had to recheck as a examiner. (i.e. LAS: "N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. A pilot will be given priority in an emergency situation, and they will need to submit a report of this emergency within 48 hours to the manager of the ATC facility if this is requested of them. The pilot of N731NR is a jerk, as well as an unsafe pilot that should not be flying. Information Mike current at Henderson, they're landing 35"N731NR: [inaudible]. As soon as I heard this when she said not cleared I remember him saying thats a $5,000 fine. This guys ego trip does not trump the lives of the flying public and those on the ground who live under the pattern. ATC "OK, state reasons please". The comments on this page have not been provided, reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any advertiser, and it is not an advertiser's responsibility to ensure posts and/or questions are answered. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? Review: EgyptAir Lounge Cairo Airport (CAI). Bravo airspace, like Ben said, is the airspace around major airports in the country. But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. To check up on N1NR 's claim that he requested clearance there was only one conversation between N1NR and ATC that was seven minutes prior. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. The best way to ensure that you do not get in any trouble is to stay vigilant, follow the rules, and file a report if you know that an error has occurred on your behalf. I, at times, if the weather is good enough, cancelled IFR..continuing on my own. E To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is To cross LAS B airspace to get to HND is beyond my ability to grasp. @Francis Bagbey Can A Private Pilot Fly As A Sport Pilot. We cannot possibly explain reasoning behind every denial of service at the time it happens. Maybe "Karen" is the fictitious name the ignorant/uncaring pilot in this story gave himself!? Well you guys been calling all kind names to this pilot, and you probably right, but he made the mistake or not to come inside of Bravo,the tower job now os to try bring everyone safe in,then let FAA deal with it. Please inform me prior to conducting any service demanding fees.I would prefer the request filled electronically, by e-mail attachment if available or CD-ROM if not. The call taker should stick to the facts and avoid all emotionality, etc. Controllers can order pilots to leave airspace for many reasons but the pilot is refusing to follow the order. Why Do They Cut the Back of Your Shirt When You First Fly Solo? Let the appropriate agency (the FAA) handle this. The duration of aircraft registration certificates has been extended up to 7 years. 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing) Invoice.pdf, 2020-007191WS Anonymous (Laing) PDPNR.pdf, Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Act Request #2020-007191. * See for example https://youtu.be/mUSUXnr4dSo, Subject: HQ: Request 2020-007191 under the Freedom of Information Act, 5 U.S.C. Heres the full ATC audio, should you want to listen to it (when you listen to it youll appreciate just how angry this guys tone is): Ive never heard ATC audio where a pilot is so disobedient to instructions. Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. Sometimes they have multiple frequencies on the same station, so you might hear more than one controller. Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. My local airport is RDU. It should have gone 1NR, please exit the Bravo. That kind of thing happens every day. Good for the controller for remaining reasonable. Even the simplest of deviations can make the difference between life and death, which is why it is so important to stick to the rules. You should be ashamed. You don't insist you didn't make a mistake. Essentially, you have the right to be aware that you are in trouble after making a mistake. Good luck. Attached you will find the Acknowledgment Letter in response to your Freedom of Information Act request. That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. Get the stick out of your asses". The pilot violated the FARs and FSDO needs to take appropriate action. I've been given instructions that I don't agree with. . Sometimes, when major airports are busy, they ban transitions through their airspace, in which case you have to either: - route around, under, or above the relevant airspace https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/a1wehj/so_who_has_one_of_these/ Also in this case, N1NR is crossing directly into the path of other aircraft's landing approach (2 Southwest airplanes at that moment were landing). He did not declare a fuel emergency, so go east over Lake Meade, or go west over Red Rocks and stay out of B and get to HND without any issues. . At the end, it seems like there was at least one transmission we didn't hear where this pilot was giving "his side of the story" to Henderson Ground, hence that controller apologizing to him. If N1NR had requested clearance, ATC would have responded with clearance or denial and N1NR would have to confirm what was said. I looked back over it, and finally saw the one you mentioned, somehow missed it before. This brasher warning is intended to provide the involved flight crew with the opportunity to make note of the incident that has taken place and gather their thoughts before it is discussed. Id. But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. But generally, we want what is best (safest as well as most enjoyable) for the users. Friday. I wonder if they're aware of how much exposure this has in the pilot community. I was working the ER In Jerusalem and this belligerent teen was being kept there for observation post head trauma. I've been given instructions that I don't agree with. Pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, I hereby request the following records: An electronic copy of:- any accident, investigation, pilot deviation reports, legal enforcement actions (incl suspensions, revocations and/or monetary penalties) or FSDO records (including statements or phone recordings from Las Vegas or Henderson Tower ATC regarding a possible pivot deviation on June 20, 2020 where N731NR may have entered Bravo airspace without clearance*)- from 2018-Nov-5 to present,- of owner WIFE APPROVED LLC, registration N731NR, or Jeff Wachner. . There was a similar incident once about 10 years ago in New York where the kid would keep declaring and undeclaring an emergency. The pilot was asked to leave, but decides to stay. I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. Runway 27L, cleared for takeoff." You respond appropriately. Is there any way you can vector me through? It was quite a [emailprotected]## show. * For those reading this forum long after June 2020, this is a time where law enforcement organizations (LEOs) across the US are being told to stop killing minorities. Sometimes its not possible to accommodate requests, either because of airport or supervisory/FAA edicts or because of systemic procedures or because of current workload. He's going to find it hard for anyone to swallow his excuses. If this pilot had responded to the controllers first comment with, Oh my gosh. Been there, done that. Yeah, this whole sick daughter thing sounds like so much after action excuse making. The F-15 and F-16 have to go over twice that. "LAS: "Nobody clears you through the Bravo but me. It's hard to begin to defend such irrational and reckless behavior. And he had to know that ATC comms are recorded. Im an air traffic controller in a class B airspace (one of the 8 US airports busier than LAS) and I have to admit that Im occasionally underwhelmed by the services that my coworkers are willing to provide; how unenthusiastic they can be about working a little harder to allow a VFR aircraft to enter the airspace. As well as this, you might want to consider making a call to an aviation attorney before you call the number that you have been provided with. My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions. Mistakes happen. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately.Pilot: Ive been talking to you the whole time. An entitled pilot enters restricted airspace and argues with air traffic control when told to leave.It appears to be a normal day June 20, 2020 at Las Vegas Air Traffic Control (ATC) when an air traffic controller directing planes notices a small Cessna in Bravo airspace that was not cleared to be there. The guy is completely wrong, sad thing is he will probably only get a slap on the wrist. She didn't take the high road when he became argumentative. He did request a clearance. Sincerely,Annjanette CumminsNational FOIA Coordinator for ANM, AAL & AWP RegionsFOIA Program Management Branch, AFN-400(206) 231-2034[AFN3_SignatureImage_2a]. . Attached is the letter in response to your above mentioned FOIA request. None of my students have gotten one either. Opinions expressed here are the authors alone, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any of these entities. I've gotta jump on the bandwagon in wondering "just what the heck 'Karen' was thinking" when she told the 99.9999999% of commentors on this site to get the "sticks out of their asses". These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? NOBODY and I mean NOBODY will fly next to a cessna and then hold up a sign (that conveniently they stashed in the cockpit) and write on it with a magic marker. In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. Instructions on distribution of When an aircraft is approaching your airspace and the destination is on the opposite side, it's obvious that they're going to need to descend at some point. However he failed to descend below the inner ring, that ring starts at 4500 ft MSL and goes up to 10000 ft MSL. Both pilot and atc handled the situation poorly. Unfortunately we are unable to move forward with your request until we have a name. Air traffic controllers are susceptible to power trips and moods and biases, just like everyone else. Is spoiled B short for "Spoiled Bravo Airspace" or "Spoiled Brat" or "Spoiled B." :). We will also go into the consequences that could occur if you were to get into trouble for this. Or . Doxing is not right. This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. Get the stick out of your asses. Anarchists on the ground, anarchists in the air. Note that the question does NOT ask: > When ATC has you call them for pilot deviation you have made, what do they say on the phone? A copy of documents responsive to the request. The worst case scenario would not be to lose your certificate. But you'd think that someone displaying this much attitude and disrespect for critical rules would have shown his true colors and been denied a license much earlier. Yes humans make mistakes, and that is why aviation has the strictest protocols outside Oh my gosh! Indeed: N731NR - Aircraft Registration Information D DankVectorz Legendary Member FAA Messages 1,895 Facility N90 New York Tracon Jun 25, 2020 #6 Phillyman2633 said: What the cuck? I'm the ATC supervisor in FSD is NxxxxR still owned by (bus name). ], Subject: RE: FOIA 2020-007191WP DUE: 8/6/2020. Mistakes happen. Another pilot chimes in with his thoughts. Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. WWFeldman Pre-takeoff checklist Joined: Nov 11, 2019 Messages: 107 Display name: WWFeldman I'm sure we all remember our favorite bravo buster. In over 30 years of flying, I have sat and listened to amateur pilots give ATC professionals a load of sh*#. For more information, please see our Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace before entering the Bravo airspace. For the next month Dad did at least one flight with all of IPs students to check on his teaching ability. I love listening to air traffic control audio, either just live, or recordings of interesting interactions. What a name for a company! I noticed the same aircraft had an incident last year with a gear-up landing in St. Louis. It seems like the pilot was intent on entering Bravo with or without permission. Were all here to check each other and keep our airspace safe. As well as this, any pilot in command that deviates from an ATC clearance in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory should notify the ATC of the deviation as soon as possible. Its about attitude, and my only (very generous) defense of this pilots terrible attitude is that all of us are more tense and reactive these days with the covid pandemic, elections, riots, BLM, and other socio-political upheavals were dealing with globally. Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. While we do try to list all the best miles and points deals, the site does not include all card companies or credit card offers available in the marketplace. Thank you for your pointing out you're anti-USA and somehow a pilot incursion into Class Bravo airspace has to do with "anti-mask BS". He flew into the Bravo airspace without a clearance, argued with the controller when she repeatedly told him to exit the Bravo, and continued his flight through as if he owned the airspace. I dont see any defense to his behavior. And stop hating on those people in supermarkets and parks. Stay connected with the latest travel, aviation, and credit card news. We are going to explain what pilot deviation is in this article, and how serious this violation can be for you. Isnt the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Fords of the world putting the rest of us at risk? Any follow up on this? Alan BillingsFOIA Business AnalystFederal Aviation Administration AFN-400(O) 202-267-6352alan.billings@faa.gov, Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Act Request: FAA records for N731NR. I'm flying." In aviation terms regarding "pilot deviation", the controller is telling the pilot that he is being reported, and there will be an investigation by the FAA. Otherwise he'll have his license yanked in *very* short order. If you do not, then you might face losing your certificate, which isnt what anybody wants. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. Please view our advertising policy page for additional details about our partners. What's the big deal? I know this Controller and she is good at her job. When the controller said he was not cleared to enter the class B he probably thought he wasn't in the class B and after his 1st conversation is when he probably noticed he was off altitude because he made a quick decent to 4000 ft. His next run in is when he cut the corner of the center ring which is from the ground to 10000 ft MSL. If he had a sick passenger he should have explained the situation to ATC better or at all. ATC is trying to direct traffic and Mr Wachner regardless of a possible misunderstanding says to hell with you I'm doing what I want. Although VASAviation transcribed it as "you're being that," it sounded to me more like this pilot started to retort with, "YOU'RE being an ass--", then caught himself and said, "That is not appropriate language.". First of all, I've never gotten one, and don't plan to get one. document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); He violated Bravo airspace. https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/faa-records-for-n731nr-97015/, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. This was a deliberate and willful violation of regulations. Everything is on tape. Flightaware shows he flew in from denver at 16300' level the whole way. Not for nothing, but shes only got 2 guys in the area, coulda cleared him through. It is quite apparent that the pilot is well versed in being an a**hole. For starters, she let him wander into bravo and didn't kick him out until he was well inside. Civil aviation authorities should raise pilot standards. You don't get to tar the rest of us with his brush. The second LAS TRACON told him to exit Bravo he should have done the max-bank 180 his aircraft and his passenger(s) and he is comfortable with and exited Bravo. Always good to receive a reminder that your pilot may be a nut case and we can just hope we never find out if s/he is or not. You have to request Bravo clearance.Pilot: I requested Bravo clearance about 15 miles ago.ATC: Nobody cleared you through the Bravo but me.Pilot: Then clear me through.ATC: No!Pilot: Yes!. She is going to give him the number when he's ready. This was a blatant disregard of regulations after being told to exit the Class B. The begged question is false. 3h 18m. Hundreds could have died. It appears that this pilot is a child of the "Magenta Line", it looks like he flies with automation on a lot. He should AT LEAST be suspended, and frankly, given his behavior, I have no issue with his losing it. twitter.com/journo_anon Public Records Requester. This may come as a shock to you, but us general aviation Cesena (sic) clowns have as much right to use the airspace as any commercial operation. Due to the multiple violations including multiple times refusing to obey an ATC order, I am hoping the pilot's license is suspended at a minimum. In other words, his head was so far up his ass The compilation is based on data from the agency's Enforcement Information System ( EIS ). Now, I hate to defend this guy because what he did was insane but i'm not so quick to pull his ticket simply because I wouldn't want my Now, I hate to defend this guy because what he did was insane but i'm not so quick to pull his ticket simply because I wouldn't want my ticket pulled if I messed up - though I wouldn't like that. Neil Wilsonthe CFIIsays "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far".. You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. Caller - is he available, Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. I just looked over the link you posted. However, this data alone does not provide the basis for a determination regarding the. The tower controller likely For everyone making your amazing judgment calls on the Henderson controller: The plane was a Cessna P210N, so pressurization could be an issue. > Word of caution: the owner of the aircraft is easily found, and plenty of information is out there. incorporated its pilot deviation notification procedures into the Facility Operation and Administration publication in 1986. Hard to believe there is somebody out there kind-of defending him! often don't recognize their own issue. He should have declared an emergency when denied entry into Bravo. Flying his bird may get a lot less pleasant REAL fast. This is why the controller is denying entry into Bravo space. IMO he needs to have his ticket pulled for a year minimum. Penalties, possibly, but he claesrlrx requested class B and was blown off "Nobody gives a f*. Karen: > Nobody gives a f*. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. Who knows what the FAA would consider a serious offense if we ever make a legitimate error? Then he flew back to Torrance the next day. Pilot deviation is when the actions of the pilot result in the violation of a Federal Aviation Regulation or a North American Aerospace Defense Command Air Defense Identification Zone tolerance. Recognizing the mistakes, learning from them, and apologizing makes for more experienced PICs, and thus safer airspace. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. Everybody said most of everything I would want to say. This guy should be banned from flying period! This notice provides new procedures for investigating pilot deviations (PD), and completing FAA Form 8020-18, Investigation of Pilot Deviation Report by certificate-holding district offices (CHDO), Flight Standards District Offices (FSDO), and certificate management offices (CMO) with oversight of air carrier operators certificated under My father was an Air Traffic Controller when the accident happened over San Diego in 1979 (not the one on duty when the accident occurred) so I know just as much about the history of this airspace as you claim to know, maybe even more. - hold until otherwise instructed I'll give you the number when you're ready to copy. Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by WWFeldman, Oct 29, 2020. I don't care where people get frustrated. Wrong. To do this, they will use the Brasher Notification Phraseology. Tower: "N12345, I'll call your right turn north east. "This guy might just be the most negligent pilot ever in terms of how he ignores instructions." I'd like to know more about the outcome. When Can You Deviate From an ATC Clearance? You should be ashamed. Sort it out on the ground, or declare an emergency: pilot is an ass. 2021.4.14.1400. So to appease the pilot and keep him from rattling off more sob story on frequency, he just smiles and waves. Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. Unless there is an emergency, no person should operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction. Thats the whole point of talking to you.ATC: You have to have a Bravo clearance. "N731NR (whining): "I'm inside"LAS: "You were not given a clearance through the Bravo.